Willis Carto archive

Including information about his associates

Judgment Debtor’s Examination of Elisabeth Carto (4/10/1998)


SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
FOR THE COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO, NORTH COUNTY BRANCH
HONORABLE RUSTON G. MAINO, DEPARTMENT D

_________________________________
                                 )
LEGION FOR THE SURVIVAL OF       )
FREEDOM, INC., A TEXAS           )
CORPORATION,                     )
                                 )
              PLAINTIFF,         )
                                 )
    VS.                          )  CASE NO. N64584
                                 )
WILLIS CARTO, ELISABETH CARTO,   )
LEWIS FURR, LAVONNE FURR, ET AL.,)
                                 )
             DEFENDANTS.         )
_________________________________)
			
			

Reporter’s Transcript of Elisabeth Carto
Judgment Debtor Examination

TAKEN AT VISTA, CALIFORNIA
APRIL 10, 1998

     REPORTED BY DENISE L. MC CONNELL, RPR, CSR
     CSR NO. 11508

Page 1
			
			

						
 1   VISTA, CALIFORNIA:     APRIL 10, 1998:        2:39 PM

 2   HONORABLE RUSTON G. MAINO                DEPARTMENT D

 3              (DENISE L. MC CONNELL, REPORTER.)

 4

 5                        ELISABETH CARTO,

 6   HAVING BEEN FIRST DULY SWORN BY THE CLERK OF THE COURT,

 7   TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:

 8

 9                          EXAMINATION

10   BY MR. SAMPSON:

11          Q.    HELLO.  MY NAME IS BRYAN SAMPSON REPRESENTING

12   THE JUDGMENT CREDITOR IN THIS ACTION.

13                WOULD YOU, PLEASE, STATE AND SPELL YOUR FULL

14   NAME FOR THE RECORD.

15          A.    ELISABETH, SPELLED WITH AN “S,” LAST NAME IS

16   C-A-R-T-O.

17          Q.    AND DO YOU HAVE A MIDDLE NAME?

18          A.    I JUST USE MY INITIAL, W.

19          Q.    AND WHAT DOES THAT STAND FOR?

20          A.    W-A-L-T-R-A-U-D.

21          Q.    THANK YOU.  YOU'RE ANSWERING VERY CLEARLY.  I

22   APPRECIATE THAT.

23                DO YOU HAVE A MAIDEN NAME?

24          A.    I RESPECTFULLY WOULD LIKE TO --

25                (SOTTO VOCE DISCUSSION WAS HAD BETWEEN

26                MR. URTNOWSKI AND MRS. CARTO.)

27                THE WITNESS:  I WOULD LIKE TO ASSERT MY FIFTH

28   AMENDMENT RIGHTS AGAINST SELF-INCRIMINATION.


Page 3
			
			

      1   BY MR. SAMPSON:
      
      2          Q.    I KNOW YOU MAY OR MAY NOT SAY IT THIS WAY,
      
      3   BUT I'LL AGREE TO YOUR SAYING YOU'LL TAKE THE FIFTH SO YOU
      
      4   DON'T HAVE TO RECITE THAT EVERY TIME, IF YOU WANT.
      
      5          A.    IS THAT ALL RIGHT?
      
      6                MR. URTNOWSKI:  WE ACCEPT.
      
      7   BY MR. SAMPSON:
      
      8          Q.    IS ENGLISH YOUR FIRST LANGUAGE?
      
      9          A.    NO.
      
      10          Q.    IS GERMAN YOUR FIRST LANGUAGE?
      
      11          A.    YES.
      
      12          Q.    WELL, I WON'T DO THIS IN GERMAN BECAUSE I
      
      13   KNOW VERY LITTLE.
      
      14                MR. URTNOWSKI:  BRAVE REMARK.
      
      15   BY MR. SAMPSON:
      
      16          Q.    WHAT’s YOUR CURRENT HOME ADDRESS?
      
      17          A.    THE SAME ADDRESS AS IN OUR RECORD WHERE WE
      
      18   WERE --
      
      19                THE COURT REPORTER:  I'M SORRY?
      
      20                THE WITNESS:  THE SAME ADDRESS WHERE WE WERE
      
      21   RAIDED BY THE SHERIFF’s DEPARTMENT IN 1995 ON THE URGING
      
      22   OF HIS CLIENTS.
      
      23   BY MR. SAMPSON:
      
      24          Q.    AND WHAT WAS THAT ADDRESS, PLEASE?
      
      25          A.    IT’s IN ESCONDIDO, 1718 Quail Ridge ROAD.
      
      26          Q.    THAT’s YOURS.  IS THAT YOUR HUSBAND'S
      
      27   ADDRESS, ALSO?
      
      28          A.    YOU HAVE TO ASK HIM.
      
      
      Page 4
			
			


 1          Q.    IN YOUR — IN YOUR UNDERSTANDING, IS THAT

 2   WHERE HE LIVES?

 3          A.    I WOULD LIKE TO INVOKE MY FIFTH AMENDMENT

 4   PRIVILEGE ON THAT.

 5          Q.    DO YOU HAVE ANY OTHER ADDRESSES OTHER THAN

 6   THEQuail Ridgee ROAD ADDRESS?

 7          A.    I WOULD LIKE TO INVOKE MY FIFTH AMENDMENT

 8   PRIVILEGE ON THAT.

 9          Q.    ARE YOU CURRENTLY EMPLOYED ANYWHERE?

10          A.    YES.

11          Q.    WHERE ARE YOU EMPLOYED?

12          A.    LIBERTY LOBBY.

13          Q.    WHAT IS YOUR POSITION AT LIBERTY LOBBY?

14          A.    SUPERVISOR.

15          Q.    AND SUPERVISOR IN CHARGE OF WHAT TASKS?

16          A.    MEMBERSHIP DEPARTMENT.

17          Q.    DO YOU RECEIVE ANY SALARY?

18          A.    YES.

19          Q.    WHAT IS YOUR ANNUAL SALARY?

20          A.    I RESPECTFULLY DECLINE AND WOULD LIKE TO

21   ASSERT MY FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

22                MR. SAMPSON:  OFF THE RECORD.

23                (MR. URTNOWSKI AND MRS. CARTO STEPPED OUT OF

24                THE ROOM AND THEN RETURNED.)

25   BY MR. SAMPSON:

26          Q.    BACK ON THE RECORD, PLEASE.

27                WHAT IS YOUR DATE OF BIRTH?

28                (SOTTO VOCE DISCUSSION BETWEEN MR. URTNOWSKI


Page 5
			
			


 1                AND MRS. CARTO.)

 2                THE WITNESS:  FIFTH AMENDMENT, PLEASE.

 3                MR. SAMPSON:  LET THE COURT RECORD REFLECT

 4   THAT MR. URTNOWSKI IS WHISPERING TO HIS CLIENT BEFORE SHE

 5   RESPONDS.

 6                MR. URTNOWSKI:  LET THE COURT RECORD REFLECT

 7   EVERY WITNESS IN AMERICA IS ALLOWED TO SPEAK WITH THEIR

 8   COUNSEL AT ANY TIME THEY CHOOSE.  AND I'LL CHOOSE TO

 9   SPEAK TO MY COUNSEL (SIC) ANYTIME I DESIRE.

10                MR. SAMPSON:  YOU CAN SPEAK TO YOUR COUNSEL

11   ANYTIME YOU WANT.

12                NOW, WE'RE HERE TO GET HER TESTIMONY, NOT

13   YOURS.  I MADE MY NOTATION.  WE'LL LET THE JUDGE RULE ON

14   IT.

15   BY MR. SAMPSON:

16          Q.    NOW, WHERE WERE YOU BORN?

17          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

18          Q.    WERE YOU BORN IN HERFORD, GERMANY?

19          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

20          Q.    ARE YOU MARRIED?

21          A.    YES.

22          Q.    WHO ARE YOU MARRIED TO?

23          A.    WILLIS CARTO.

24          Q.    COULD YOU SPELL HIS NAME, PLEASE, FOR THE

25   RECORD?

26          A.    W-I-L-L-I-S C-A-R-T-O.

27          Q.    DOES HE USE ANY OTHER NAMES?

28          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.


Page 6
			
			


 1          Q.    WHEN — WHAT WAS THE DATE OF YOUR MARRIAGE?

 2          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

 3          Q.    HAVE YOU EVER BEEN MARRIED BEFORE?

 4          A.    NO.

 5          Q.    DO YOU HAVE ANY CHILDREN?

 6          A.    NO.

 7          Q.    WHAT IS YOUR SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER?

 8          A.    I DON'T KNOW.

 9          Q.    DO YOU HAVE ONE?

10          A.    I'M SURE I DO, YES.

11          Q.    DO YOU HAVE A PURSE WITH YOU?

12          A.    I HAVE A BRIEFCASE, BUT I HAVE NOTHING IN IT

13   EXCEPT A WRITING PAD.

14          Q.    DO YOU HAVE A DRIVER’s LICENSE?

15          A.    YES, I DO.

16          Q.    WHAT’s — WHAT STATE IS IT ISSUED OUT OF?

17          A.    CALIFORNIA.

18          Q.    DO YOU KNOW THE DRIVER’s LICENSE NUMBER?

19          A.    NO, I DON'T.

20          Q.    DID YOU DRIVE HERE TODAY?

21          A.    NO.

22          Q.    DO YOU OWN THE HOME AT — ON Quail Ridge

23   ROAD?

24          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

25          Q.    DO YOU RENT IT?

26          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

27          Q.    DO YOU HAVE ANY OTHER ARRANGEMENT THAT YOU

28   WOULD LIKE TO TALK ABOUT REGARDING YOUR HOME?


Page 7
			
			


 1          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

 2          Q.    WHEN DID YOU MOVE INTO THEQuail Ridgee

 3   ADDRESS?

 4          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

 5          Q.    WHAT IS THE SQUARE FOOT OF THEQuail Ridgee

 6   HOUSE?

 7          A.    I DON'T KNOW.

 8          Q.    DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY ACRES ARE ON THE

 9   PROPERTY — AROUND IT?

10          A.    NO, I DON'T.

11          Q.    HAVE YOU HAD THAT HOUSE APPRAISED RECENTLY?

12          A.    I DON'T THINK SO.  NO REASON TO.

13          Q.    ARE THERE ANY LIENS FILED ON THAT HOUSE THAT

14   YOU'RE AWARE OF?

15          A.    I DON'T KNOW.

16          Q.    DO YOU RUN ANY BUSINESSES OUT OF Quail Ridge

17   ROAD?

18          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

19          Q.    ARE THERE ANY PERSONS, OTHER THAN YOU,

20   STAYING AT THE Quail Ridge ROAD HOUSE?

21          A.    AT TIMES.

22          Q.    AT TIMES?  WHO?

23          A.    VISITORS.

24          Q.    SUCH AS WHO?

25          A.    FRIENDS.

26                MR. URTNOWSKI:  OBJECTION.  RELEVANCE.  I'M

27   GOING TO INSTRUCT THE WITNESS NOT TO RESPOND.

28   BY MR. SAMPSON:


Page 8
			
			


 1          Q.    HOW OFTEN DO YOU HAVE VISITORS STAY AT YOUR

 2   HOUSE?

 3                MR. URTNOWSKI:  OBJECTION.  RELEVANCE.  I'M

 4   GOING TO INSTRUCT THE WITNESS NOT TO RESPOND.

 5   BY MR. SAMPSON:

 6          Q.    ARE ANY OF THESE VISITORS RELATED TO ANY OF

 7   YOUR BUSINESSES?

 8                MR. URTNOWSKI:  OBJECTION.  RELEVANCE.  I'M

 9   GOING TO INSTRUCT THE WITNESS NOT TO RESPOND.

10   BY MR. SAMPSON:

11          Q.    WHO PAYS THE WATER BILL FOR THE PROPERTY ON

12   Quail Ridge ROAD?

13          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

14          Q.    WHO PAYS THE GAS AND ELECTRIC BILL ON THE

15   SAME PROPERTY?

16          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

17          Q.    DO YOU DRIVE A CAR?

18          A.    YES.

19          Q.    WHAT TYPE OF CAR DO YOU DRIVE?

20          A.    A 1991 CADILLAC.

21          Q.    WHO OWNS THE CAR?

22          A.    I DON'T KNOW, OFFHAND.

23          Q.    WHO PAYS INSURANCE ON THE CAR?

24          A.    I DON'T KNOW.

25          Q.    WHO PAYS FOR MAINTENANCE ON THE CAR?

26          A.    I DO.

27          Q.    DO YOU HAVE AN AGREEMENT WITH ANY THIRD PARTY

28   REGARDING USING THE CAR?


Page 9
			
			


 1          A.    I DON'T.

 2          Q.    IS THE CAR REGISTERED IN YOUR NAME?

 3          A.    NO, IT ISN'T.

 4          Q.    IS IT REGISTERED IN YOUR HUSBAND’s NAME?

 5          A.    I DON'T THINK SO.

 6          Q.    WHERE IS THE CAR MAINTAINED ON A NORMAL BASIS

 7   — PARKED?

 8          A.    WHERE I LIVE.

 9          Q.    THANK YOU.  DO YOU EVER LOAN THAT CAR TO

10   ANYONE ELSE TO DRIVE?

11                MR. URTNOWSKI:  OBJECTION.  RELEVANCE.

12   INSTRUCT THE WITNESS NOT TO RESPOND.

13   BY MR. SAMPSON:

14          Q.    DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT CAR IS WORTH TODAY?

15          A.    NO.

16          Q.    DO YOU DRIVE ANY OTHER MOTORIZED VEHICLES,

17   OTHER THAN THAT CADILLAC?

18          A.    NO.

19          Q.    DOES YOUR HUSBAND HAVE A CAR?

20          A.    HE DOESN'T HAVE A CAR, NO.

21          Q.    ARE THERE ANY OTHER CARS, OTHER THAN THE

22   CADILLAC, PARKED ON YOUR PREMISES AT Quail Ridge ROAD?

23          A.    YES.

24          Q.    WHAT OTHER CARS?

25          A.    A CHEVY.

26          Q.    CHEVY TRUCK?  CAR?

27          A.    NO.  A PASSENGER CAR.

28          Q.    AND WHO DOES THAT BELONG TO?


Page 10
			
			


 1          A.    I DON'T KNOW.

 2          Q.    DOES YOUR HUSBAND EVER DRIVE THE CHEVY?

 3          A.    I THINK SO, YES.

 4          Q.    DO YOU KNOW WHO PAYS FOR INSURANCE ON THE

 5   CHEVY?

 6          A.    NO, I DON'T.

 7          Q.    DO YOU KNOW WHO PAYS FOR MAINTENANCE ON THE

 8   CHEVY?

 9          A.    NO.

10          Q.    DO YOU OWN ANY REAL PROPERTY?

11          A.    NO.

12          Q.    ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD?

13          A.    NO.

14          Q.    DOES YOUR HUSBAND OWN ANY REAL PROPERTY?

15          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

16                MR. SAMPSON:  OFF THE RECORD.

17                (MR. URTNOWSKI AND MRS. CARTO STEPPED OUT OF

18                THE ROOM AND THEN RETURNED.)

19   BY MR. SAMPSON:

20          Q.    BACK ON THE RECORD.

21                I ASKED YOU IF YOU OWNED ANY REAL PROPERTY,

22   AND YOU SAID “NO,” AND YOU TOOK THE FIFTH FOR YOUR

23   HUSBAND.

24                DO YOU HAVE ANY INTEREST IN REAL PROPERTY

25   OTHER THAN OWNERSHIP?

26          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

27          Q.    DOES YOUR HUSBAND HAVE ANY INTEREST IN REAL

28   PROPERTY OTHER THAN OWNERSHIP?


Page 11
			
			


 1          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

 2          Q.    DO YOU OWN ANY JEWELRY?

 3          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

 4          Q.    ARE YOU WEARING A RING TODAY?

 5          A.    MY WEDDING BAND.

 6          Q.    OKAY.  DO YOU OWN ANY ANTIQUES?

 7          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

 8          Q.    ANY PERSONAL PROPERTY WORTH IN EXCESS OF

 9   $500?

10          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

11          Q.    ARE YOU AN HEIR APPARENT ON ANY WILL?

12          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

13          Q.    ARE YOU A MEMBER OF ANY TRUST?

14          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

15          Q.    DO YOU OWN ANY NEGOTIABLE INSTRUMENTS?

16          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

17          Q.    HAVE YOU ASSIGNED ASSETS TO ANY THIRD PARTIES

18   WITHIN THE LAST FIVE YEARS?

19          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

20          Q.    DO YOU BELONG TO ANY SOCIAL CLUBS?

21          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

22          Q.    DO YOU BELONG TO ANY PROFESSIONAL

23   ORGANIZATIONS?

24          A.    NO.

25          Q.    DO YOU HAVE ANY PERSONAL BANK ACCOUNTS?

26          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

27          Q.    DOES YOUR HUSBAND HAVE ANY PERSONAL BANK

28   ACCOUNTS?


Page 12
			
			


 1          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT.

 2          Q.    ARE YOU A SIGNATORY ON ANY ACCOUNT?

 3          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT.

 4          Q.    DO YOU HAVE A RETIREMENT ACCOUNT?

 5          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT.

 6          Q.    DO YOU HAVE ANY CREDIT CARDS?

 7          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT.

 8          Q.    HAVE YOU GIVEN POWER OF ATTORNEY TO ANYONE

 9   FOR ANY REASON --

10          A.    FIFTH — SORRY.

11          Q.    — WITHIN THE LAST FIVE YEARS?

12          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT.

13          Q.    DO YOU HAVE ANY COPYRIGHTS?

14          A.    NO.

15          Q.    TRADEMARKS?

16          A.    NO.

17          Q.    PATENT RIGHTS?

18          A.    NO.

19          Q.    DO YOU HAVE AN ACCOUNTANT?

20          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT.

21          Q.    WHERE DO YOU MAINTAIN YOUR PERSONAL FINANCIAL

22   RECORDS?

23          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT.

24          Q.    DO YOU HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE?

25          A.    YES.

26          Q.    WITH WHAT COMPANY?

27          A.    I DON'T KNOW.

28          Q.    DO YOU HAVE LIFE INSURANCE?


Page 13
			
			


 1          A.    I DON'T THINK SO.

 2          Q.    DO YOU HAVE ANY PROPERTY INSURANCE?

 3          A.    I DON'T THINK SO.

 4          Q.    PERSONAL OR REAL PROPERTY?

 5          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

 6                MR. SAMPSON:  LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT

 7   MR. URTNOWSKI KICKED HIS CLIENT.

 8                MR. URTNOWSKI:  MR. URTNOWSKI DIDN'T CLICK --

 9   KICK HIS CLIENT.  MR. SAMPSON IS BEING RIDICULOUS AND

10   UNPROFESSIONAL, AGAIN.

11                MR. SAMPSON:  I'M GOING TO MAKE A RECORD.

12   THIS IS A DEPOSITION.

13                MR. URTNOWSKI:  MAKE WHATEVER RECORD YOU

14   WANT.

15                MR. IZEN:  I THINK YOU --

16                MR. SAMPSON:  IDENTIFY YOURSELF FOR THE

17   RECORD, PLEASE.

18                MR. IZEN:  I'M JOE ALFRED IZEN, JUNIOR.  IT

19   — I THINK YOU MADE A MISTAKE.  YOU SAID SHE ASSERTED THE

20   FIFTH AMENDMENT FOR HER HUSBAND ON THE MATTER OF REAL

21   PROPERTY.  SHE CAN'T ASSERT THE FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE

22   FOR HER HUSBAND.

23                WHAT SHE DID WAS, SHE CLAIMED THE FIFTH

24   AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE WHEN YOU ASKED HER ABOUT WHETHER HER

25   HUSBAND HAD ANY REAL ESTATE.  THANK YOU.

26                MS. ARONSON:  MAY I MAKE AN OBSERVATION FOR

27   THE RECORD?

28                MY NAME IS ELIZABETH ARONSON, AND I ALSO SAW


Page 14
			
			


 1   MR. URTNOWSKI KICK HIS CLIENT.

 2                MR. URTNOWSKI:  WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

 3                MR. SAMPSON:  OFF THE RECORD.

 4                (DISCUSSION WAS HAD OFF THE RECORD.)

 5                MR. SAMPSON:  BACK ON THE RECORD.

 6                MR. URTNOWSKI:  BACK ON THE RECORD.  I RESENT

 7   WHAT MS. ARONSON SAID.  IT WAS INCORRECT.  I DIDN'T KICK

 8   MY WITNESS, AND IT'S, AGAIN, RIDICULOUS.

 9   BY MR. SAMPSON:

10          Q.    YOU INDICATED EARLIER THAT YOU WORK AT

11   LIBERTY LOBBY; IS THAT CORRECT?

12          A.    YES.

13          Q.    HOW MANY HOURS A WEEK DO YOU WORK?

14          A.    40-HOUR WEEK.

15          Q.    AND WHERE DO YOU GO EACH DAY THAT YOU GO TO

16   WORK?

17          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

18          Q.    YOU'VE BEEN SERVED WITH A COPY OF THE

19   JUDGMENT IN THIS CASE, HAVEN'T YOU?

20          A.    I'VE SEEN THE JUDGMENT.

21          Q.    AND IN THE JUDGMENT, THE COURT DIRECTED YOU

22   TO GIVE AN ACCOUNTING OF WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL THE GEMS; IS

23   THAT CORRECT?

24                MR. URTNOWSKI:  DO YOU KNOW THAT?

25                THE WITNESS:  VAGUELY, BUT I DON'T REALLY

26   REMEMBER EXACTLY WHAT IT WAS.

27   BY MR. SAMPSON:

28          Q.    HAVE YOU EVER PROVIDED AN ACCOUNTING OF WHERE


Page 15
			
			


 1   THE GEMS WENT?

 2          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

 3                MR. URTNOWSKI:  LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT

 4   MR. SAMPSON POINTED AT ME WITH BOTH OF HIS INDEX FINGERS

 5   AND GRINNED.  I'M NOT SURE WHAT THAT MEANS.

 6   BY MR. SAMPSON:

 7          Q.    ARE YOU A PLAINTIFF IN ANY ACTION, IN ANY

 8   LAWSUIT?

 9          A.    IN THIS INSTANCE — NO.  I'M A DEFENDANT.

10          Q.    ARE YOU A PLAINTIFF IN ANY OTHER LAWSUIT?

11          A.    AM I A PLAINTIFF?  I DON'T RECALL, OFFHAND.

12          Q.    WHO PAYS THE TAXES ON Quail Ridge ROAD?

13          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

14          Q.    ONE OF THE HEARINGS TODAY IS A MOTION

15   REGARDING YOUR HUSBAND’s FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

16                DID YOU SEE YOUR ATTORNEY’s PAPERS BEFORE

17   THEY WERE FILED?

18                MR. URTNOWSKI:  OBJECTION.  RELEVANCE.

19   INSTRUCT THE WITNESS NOT TO RESPOND.  ATTORNEY-CLIENT

20   PRIVILEGE.

21                MR. SAMPSON:  THE PRIVILEGE --

22                MR. URTNOWSKI:  WORK PRODUCT DOCTRINE.

23                MR. SAMPSON:  — DOESN'T EXTEND TO SEEING THE

24   PAPERS.

25   BY MR. SAMPSON:

26          Q.    HAVE YOU TRAVELLED TO SWITZERLAND RECENTLY?

27                MR. URTNOWSKI:  OBJECTION.  RELEVANCE.

28   INSTRUCT THE WITNESS NOT TO RESPOND.  ASSERTING FIFTH


Page 16
			
			


 1   AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE AGAINST SELF-INCRIMINATION.

 2                THE WITNESS:  FIFTH AMENDMENT.

 3   BY MR. SAMPSON:

 4          Q.    HAVE YOU TRAVELLED TO GERMANY RECENTLY?

 5          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT.

 6          Q.    DO YOU PLAN ON TRAVELLING TO SWITZERLAND IN

 7   THE NEAR FUTURE?

 8                MR. URTNOWSKI:  OBJECTION.  RELEVANCE.

 9   INSTRUCT THE WITNESS NOT TO RESPOND.

10   BY MR. SAMPSON:

11          Q.    ARE YOU GOING TO ACCEPT YOUR ATTORNEY'S

12   ADVICE?

13          A.    YES.

14                MR. URTNOWSKI:  SHE WILL.

15                MR. SAMPSON:  LET HER ANSWER, PLEASE,

16   MR. URTNOWSKI.

17                MR. URTNOWSKI:  SHE WILL.  SAY WHATEVER YOU

18   WANT.  I'LL PUT ANYTHING ON THE RECORD ANYTIME I CHOOSE,

19   MR. SAMPSON.

20                MR. SAMPSON:  I AGREE, BUT I'M GETTING HER

21   ANSWERS, NOT YOURS.

22                MR. URTNOWSKI:  DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO.

23   BY MR. SAMPSON:

24          Q.    HAVE YOU EVER USED THE NAME ELISABETH

25   OLDEMEIER?

26          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT.

27          Q.    HAVE YOU EVER USED THE NAME ELISABETH

28   MAC INTIRE?


Page 17
			
			


 1          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT.

 2          Q.    HAVE YOU EVER USED THE NAME ELISABETH MARTIN?

 3          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

 4          Q.    DO YOU RESIDE AT 316 INDEPENDENCE AVENUE IN

 5   WASHINGTON, DC EVER?

 6          A.    NO.

 7          Q.    WHO ARE THE OFFICERS OF LIBERTY LOBBY?

 8          A.    I DON'T KNOW.

 9          Q.    WHO ARE THE DIRECTORS OF LIBERTY LOBBY?

10          A.    I DON'T KNOW.

11          Q.    ARE THERE OTHER EMPLOYEES AT LIBERTY LOBBY

12   OTHER THAN YOU?

13          A.    YES.

14          Q.    WHO ARE THEY?

15                MR. URTNOWSKI:  OBJECTION.  RELEVANCE.

16   INSTRUCT THE WITNESS NOT TO RESPOND.

17   BY MR. SAMPSON:

18          Q.    ARE YOU ASSOCIATED WITH VIBET, ONE OF THE

19   DEFENDANTS IN THIS ACTION?

20                MR. URTNOWSKI:  OBJECTION.  VAGUE AND

21   AMBIGUOUS AS TO THE TERM “ASSOCIATED."

22   BY MR. SAMPSON:

23          Q.    GO AHEAD AND ANSWER.

24          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

25          Q.    DO YOU PURCHASE GROCERIES TO EAT ON A WEEKLY

26   BASIS?

27          A.    WELL, YES.

28          Q.    WHAT DO YOU PURCHASE THE GROCERIES WITH?


Page 18
			
			


 1          A.    MONEY.

 2          Q.    CASH OR CHECKS?

 3          A.    CASH.

 4          Q.    WHERE DOES THE CASH COME FROM?

 5          A.    FIFTH AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE.

 6          Q.    DO YOU KNOW MR. HENRY FISCHER, A DEBTOR IN

 7   THIS ACTION?

 8          A.    YES.

 9          Q.    WHERE IS HE LIVING NOW?

10          A.    I DON'T KNOW.

11          Q.    WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SAW HIM?

12                MR. URTNOWSKI:  OBJECTION.  RELEVANCE.

13   OUTSIDE THE SCOPE OF THIS EXAMINATION.  INSTRUCT THE

14   WITNESS NOT TO RESPOND.

15                MR. SAMPSON:  I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS AT

16   THIS TIME.

17                WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE THIS FOR THE MOTION

18   TO COMPEL, AND I'M GOING TO GET A TURN-OVER ORDER, SO IF

19   YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS ON THE RECORD --

20                MR. URTNOWSKI:  IT’s MY POSITION THAT THERE'S

21   NO CONTINUATION, THAT THIS IS TERMINATED, AND IF THERE’s A

22   MOTION TO COMPEL, WE'LL SEE WHAT THE JUDGE DECIDES.

23                MR. SAMPSON:  IT’s MY POSITION THAT IT’s NOT

24   TERMINATED.

25                NOW, STIPULATIONS, AS FAR AS THE RECORD?

26                MR. URTNOWSKI:  WHAT DID WE HAVE LAST TIME?

27                MR. SAMPSON:  WE CAN DO THE SAME.  BASICALLY,

28   THIS TRANSCRIPT WILL GO TO YOUR OFFICE, AND THEN YOU'LL


Page 19
			
			


 1   HAVE — HOW LONG DO YOU NEED TO HAVE HER REVIEW IT AND

 2   MAKE ANY CHANGES TO IT?

 3                MR. URTNOWSKI:  TEN DAYS?

 4                THE WITNESS:  SURE.  FINE.

 5                MR. URTNOWSKI:  TEN DAYS.

 6                MR. SAMPSON:  TEN DAYS IS FINE?

 7                OKAY, THEN.  TEN DAYS AFTER THE COURT

 8   REPORTER MAILS IT TO MR. URTNOWSKI --

 9                MR. URTNOWSKI:  AFTER I RECEIVE IT.

10                MR. SAMPSON:  — AFTER HE RECEIVES IT, THEN

11   WE WILL DEEM THAT ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN IT IS CORRECT,

12   UNLESS YOU MAKE ANY CHANGES.

13                AND WE ALSO STIPULATE THAT A COPY MAY BE USED

14   IN COURT IN LIEU OF THE ORIGINAL, IF THE ORIGINAL IS

15   UNAVAILABLE.

16                MR. URTNOWSKI:  SO STIPULATED.

17                MR. SAMPSON:  SO STIPULATED.  THANK YOU.

18                (WHEREUPON, AT 3:02 P.M., THE JUDGMENT

19                DEBTOR EXAMINATION WAS ADJOURNED.)

20

21                            --OOO--



Page 20
			
			


 1                            --OOO--

 2

 3          I CERTIFY UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY, PURSUANT TO THE

 4   LAWS OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, THAT THE FOREGOING IS

 5   TRUE AND CORRECT.

 6

 7          _________________________DATE

 8

 9

10          _________________________SIGNATURE

11             ELISABETH CARTO



Page 21