Willis Carto archive

Including information about his associates

Judgment Debtor Examination of Elisabeth W. Carto (8/13/2001)

IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO
NORTH COUNTY BRANCH

___________________________
                           *
LEGION FOR THE SURVIVAL OF *
FREEDOM, INC., a Texas     *
corporation,               *
                           *
Plaintiff,                 *
                           *
vs.                        * Case No. N 64584
                           *
WILLIS CARTO, et al.,      *
                           *
Defendants.                *
___________________________*
			
			

Judgment Debtor Examination of Elisabeth W. Carto

Taken at San Diego, California
June 13, 2001



1
2 JUDGMENT DEBTOR EXAMINATION OF ELIZABETH CARTO
3
4 Pursuant to Court Order, on the 13th day of
5 June, 2001, commencing at the hour of 2:00 o'clock p.m.
6 at 2139 First Avenue, Second Floor, in the City and
7 County of San Diego, State of California, before me,
8 T. A. Martin, Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for the
9 State of California, personally appeared:
10 ELIZABETH W. CARTO,
11 who, called as a witness by the Plaintiff, being by me
12 first duly sworn, was thereupon examined as a witness in
13 said cause.
2
			
			
1 MS. ARONSON: Brian Urtnowski, the attorney for
2 Ms. Carto, would like to make a few preliminary
3 statements.
4 MR. URTNOWSKI: Today we are appearing pursuant
5 to a continued judgment debtor exam, and at the
6 appearance today we were required to produce documents.
7 We were also required to produce documents pursuant to a
8 turnover order. We have brought with us today four
9 equivalent of the like banker boxes full of documents
10 that are responsive to both the judgment debtor
11 examination production and the turnover order production.
12 I realize that the documents could not be copied
13 this quickly, so what I have proposed to Ms. Aronson is
14 that I become the custodian of these documents; they can
15 come back to my office; I will retain them there and Ms.
16 Aronson’s office can send up a production service for the
17 documents.
18 With respect to documents that are responsive to
19 Liberty Lobby or any of the D.C. entities, those
20 documents exist in Washington, D.C. I spoke to Mr.
21 Sampson about them. Mr. Sampson said that he would
22 arrange to have a copy service go back to D.C. and copy
23 those documents. I believe there are Liberty Lobby and
24 some other of the D.C. entities.
25 Mr. Sampson asked me to give a rough estimate of
3
			
			
1 the number of documents that exist, and he limited it to
2 financial documents. It appears there are 10 to 15
3 boxes, as well as two or three file cabinets that are
4 probably responsive to the production demand.
5 With respect to Mr. Carto’s judgment debtor
6 examination, Mr. Sampson — Mr. Carto is out of the state
7 at this time. Mr. Sampson and I agreed on a continuation
8 of his deposition. Mr. Sampson had asked me for some
9 available dates. And dates I have right now are next
10 Wednesday, next Thursday and next Friday, which I believe
11 are the 20, 21 and 22. If those days are not acceptable,
12 then I will produce additional dates. At that time Mr.
13 Carto will be producing the documents personally
14 responsive to him under his turnover order and under his
15 judgment debtor examination.
16 And my office was also served with a third-party
17 judgment debtor examination. Ms. Aronson is going to
18 provide me with another copy of the document production.
19 I have misplaced it or it’s misfiled. And I will produce
20 those documents at Mr. Carto’s examination.
21 MS. ARONSON: Okay. Thank you.
22
23 EXAMINATION BY MS. ARONSON:
24 Q. Before we begin, I just wanted to go over a few
25 things with you, Ms. Carto. You do have your attorney
4
			
			
1 here with you, so I understand he must have had some time
2 to explain this process to you a little bit?
3 A. The debtor hearing or deposition-type thing?
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. I've been in depositions.
6 MR. URTNOWSKI: I didn't actually explain this,
7 but, Ms. Carto, this is the same as a deposition.
8 THE WITNESS: I've been in those.
9 MR. URTNOWSKI: It’s under penalty of perjury.
10 The court reporter is taking down our testimony, my
11 objections. We will get a chance to review it, make any
12 changes, but of course the admonition is if you make
13 changes, they'll be commented on and could be used to
14 challenge your veracity. So at this time it’s best to
15 give your best responses. The same with the examination.
16 Even though it is informal, it is under penalty of
17 perjury. And for the assistance of the court reporter
18 and to permit me to interpose objections, if both parties
19 don't talk over each other, Ms. Aronson will wait for
20 your answer before she starts another question, and I'll
21 try to not to get in the mix too much either.
22 THE WITNESS: Okay.
23 BY MS. ARONSON:
24 Q. Also, just to say on the record, this is not any
25 type of endurance test. If you need to take a break or
5
			
			
1 go to the ladies' room, just let us know and we can go
2 off the record. Also, if you want to talk to your
3 attorney, just let me know and again we will go off the
4 record so you can have a chance to speak with him.
5 A. Thank you.
6 Q. Would you mind stating and spelling your full
7 name for the record, please.
8 A. It’s Elizabeth — you have that already. My
9 middle name is W-a-l-t-r-a-u-d. I hardly use it. The
10 last name is C-a-r-t-o.
11 Q. Have you used any other names in the past other
12 than Elizabeth Carto?
13 A. Never illegally.
14 Q. The question wasn't whether it was legally or
15 illegally. Just any other names you might have used.
16 A. I have written an article maybe under another
17 name.
18 Q. What name would that have been?
19 A. I don't even remember.
20 Q. Had you ever used the name Mrs. J. W. Young?
21 A. No, I don't believe so.
22 Q. What was your maiden name, please?
23 A. Oldemeier, O-l-d-e-m-e-i-e-r.
24 MS. ARONSON: And the court reporter will please
25 let us know if we go too fast.
6
			
			
1 Q. What is your home telephone number?
2 A. 760-746-4842.
3 Q. Now, that is the number for the Quail Ridge
4 property, correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is that also your current home address?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Would you mind stating it for the record?
9 A. 1718 Quail Ridge road — that is one word,
10 Quail Ridge — Escondido.
11 Q. What is the zip code there?
12 A. 92027.
13 Q. Do you have any P. O. Boxes?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What is the address of the P. O. Box?
16 A. B. O. Box 28802, San Diego, 92198.
17 Q. Would that be the only post office box?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What is your present occupation?
20 A. I work for the Liberty Lobby as a supervisor.
21 Q. How long have you had that job?
22 A. 40 years.
23 Q. Your title is simply supervisor, correct?
24 A. Yes. I supervise our membership program.
25 Q. What would your job duties include?
7
			
			
1 A. Oh, we make mailings to members. I help with
2 mailings. And just generally office work, whatever they
3 send to me. I do most of the work out here in
4 California.
5 Q. Would you receive mail on behalf of Liberty
6 Lobby?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Who would be responsible for receiving mail on
9 behalf of Liberty Lobby?
10 A. Liberty Lobby.
11 Q. Who would be the person at Liberty Lobby that
12 would actually receive mail?
13 A. No one person. It’s — somebody might pick up a
14 bag from the post office. It’s a delivery boy that we
15 have that picks up mail, or the postman brings it and it
16 goes to the office, goes to what we call a mail room and
17 it’s opened. There is no one person.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. Whoever can help opens the mail.
20 Q. How many employees does Liberty Lobby have
21 approximately?
22 A. Between 20 and 30, I think.
23 Q. What is your date of birth?
24 A. September 25, 1937.
25 Q. Is that possible?
8
			
			
1 A. Old woman.
2 Q. You don't look like you were born in 1937. I
3 congratulate you.
4 A. Thank you.
5 Q. Where were you born?
6 A. In Herford, H-e-r-f-o-r-d.
7 Q. That is Germany, correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you're currently married to Mr. Willis
10 Carto?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Does Mr. Carto have a middle name?
13 A. Allison.
14 Q. Would you mind spelling that?
15 A. A-l-l-i-s-o-n.
16 Q. Do you know if Mr. Carto has ever gone by any
17 other names?
18 A. He has written in other names.
19 Q. What would those names be?
20 A. E. L. Anderson.
21 I can't think of any now.
22 Q. Do you recall him using the name J. W. Young?
23 A. At our present property, yes.
24 Q. Was that as a pen name or to — I believe there
25 is something about protecting yourself?
9
			
			
1 A. Yes. We were fire bombed and burned out, and we
2 were escape from the Jewish Defense League. So when we
3 moved into this property, we simply didn't feel safe
4 using our own name, but it was only used for convenience
5 at the property.
6 Q. So did you go by Mrs. J. W. Young?
7 A. No, I didn't use that, no. I always used
8 Elizabeth.
9 Q. Okay. What was the date of your marriage?
10 A. November 15, 1958.
11 Q. Have you had any other marriages other than this
12 one?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you have any children?
15 A. No.
16 Q. What is your Social Security number?
17 A. I don't know. You have that already. I don't
18 know my Social Security number.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. But you have that already.
21 Q. Okay. Just to let you know, we have to --
22 A. Right. I'm not one of these people that use
23 them all the time, so I don't know.
24 Q. It’s no problem. Just for the record, we have
25 to keep asking the same questions. It might get a little
10
			
			
1 boring. Also, if you don't mind, let me finish a
2 question before you start to answer.
3 Do you know your driver’s license number?
4 A. No, I don't.
5 Q. Do you have a California state driver’s license?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. Do you have your wallet with you, by any chance?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Is your driver’s license in there?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Would you mind looking at your driver’s license
12 number just so we can get it?
13 A. Not at all.
14 MR. URTNOWSKI: K0387628.
15 BY MS. ARONSON:
16 Q. And that is a California license?
17 A. Yes.
18 MS. ARONSON: What is the expiration date on
19 that, if you don't mind?
20 MR. URTNOWSKI: 09/25/06.
21 BY MS. ARONSON:
22 Q. While you have your wallet out, do you have any
23 credit cards?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. What are they?
11
			
			
1 A. American Express and Master Card.
2 Q. Are those business cards or are those personal?
3 A. Personal.
4 Q. Do you have a Visa?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Diners Club, anything?
7 A. No, no.
8 Q. Would you mind giving us the account number for
9 the American Express?
10 A. May I say something?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. Since all of this has been put on the Internet,
13 I had to change my number on the Master Card a few months
14 ago because it was misused. I'm very leery about giving
15 you the new number of my Master Card because I think it's
16 being used by Greg Raven. I've had trouble, and there
17 were orders charged to my card that I had to object to
18 because I did not charge them. It never happened before.
19 Q. Why don't we do this: Since we are entitled to
20 this information as part of the judgment debtor’s exam,
21 why don't I have Mr. Urtnowski write down the numbers for
22 us, and we can keep it in the attorney’s personal file
23 which will not be given to third parties. I can make
24 sure of that.
25 Would that be acceptable?
12
			
			
1 MR. URTNOWSKI: Yes. I'll agree to stipulate to
2 turn over the numbers to Ms. Aronson’s office for
3 attorney’s use for collection purposes.
4 MS. ARONSON: Would you mind --
5 THE WITNESS: Mr. Lennon has all of this
6 already, but it’s all right.
7 MS. ARONSON: I understand, but I'll make sure
8 that this doesn't get to any third parties.
9 THE WITNESS: I have another card I forgot.
10 That is Robinson-May.
11 MS. ARONSON: Just for the record, the attorneys
12 won't ring up anything on these cards either.
13 THE WITNESS: I know you wouldn't, but I know
14 somebody who would.
15 MR. URTNOWSKI: Speak for yourself.
16 THE WITNESS: I had so much trouble getting out
17 of that. He did it twice.
18 MS. ARONSON: Well, obviously I'm not saying
19 that my client had anything to do with that. I'm just
20 going to make sure that it doesn't occur in this case.
21 THE WITNESS: Of course. I can't prove it
22 either.
23 MS. ARONSON: I understand.
24 Q. While Mr. Urtnowski is writing that information
25 down, how much money do you presently have in your wallet
13
			
			
1 at this time?
2 A. Only maybe $20.
3 Q. Don't worry. I'm not going to ask you for it.
4 I'm not going to take your $20 from you.
5 Do you have any bank books with you at this
6 time?
7 A. I have my checking account book.
8 Q. Is that in your purse also?
9 A. No. I think it’s over there.
10 MR. URTNOWSKI: It’s in the documents.
11 MS. ARONSON: Why don't we go off the record a
12 second and let me locate that, and we will put that down
13 on this piece of paper also. Again, I will make sure
14 this information doesn't go to any third parties.
15 MR. URTNOWSKI: That is fine.
16 MS. ARONSON: Off the record, please.
17 (Discussion off the record.)
18 MS. ARONSON: Back on the record.
19 Let the record reflect that Ms. Carto did have
20 her check book with her and we are taking the account
21 number off of that. Also, if you wouldn't mind writing
22 down what bank it’s from.
23 MR. URTNOWSKI: B of A, Rancho Bernardo.
24 BY MS. ARONSON:
25 Q. Is that the only account you have, Mrs. Carto?
14
			
			
1 A. Yes, it is.
2 Q. No savings accounts?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Now, while Mr. Urtnowski is writing that
5 information down --
6 Do you mind if we go on?
7 MR. URTNOWSKI: Go right ahead.
8 BY MS. ARONSON:
9 Q. You had mentioned the Quail Ridge property is
10 your current address, correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you own any other real property other than
13 that?
14 A. No.
15 MS. ARONSON: Also, let the record reflect that
16 Mr. Urtnowski did hand me a document that has the
17 American Express, Master Card and Robinson-May numbers on
18 it as well as the Bank of America checking account number
19 for Mrs. Carto.
20 Q. That account, is that in your name only?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. As to the Quail Ridge property, do you presently
23 own that home? I know it’s in dispute at the moment.
24 A. We claim we don't.
25 Q. But you do not pay any rent for the house,
15
			
			
1 correct?
2 A. We pay only expenses which accumulate very
3 quickly.
4 Q. When was that residence first purchased?
5 A. In 1981.
6 Q. And was that purchased by you and your husband?
7 A. We purchased it with a friend, together with a
8 friend.
9 Q. What was the name of the friend?
10 A. Chapman, Robert Chapman.
11 Q. Does he still have any interest in the property
12 whatsoever?
13 A. No. I'm not even sure what his interest was,
14 but he never had any real money in there.
15 Q. So eventually his interest in the house did go
16 to you and your husband?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you have lived at that property since 1981?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you recall what the purchase price of the
21 property was?
22 A. 300,000.
23 Q. And do you have a current estimate of the value
24 of that residence?
25 A. No, I don't.
16
			
			
1 Q. Have you made any improvements to the home since
2 you bought it?
3 A. Basically not, no.
4 Q. Have you had any appraisal completed on the
5 residence?
6 A. An appraisal by a bank or --
7 Q. Generally an appraisal is done by some person
8 who is qualified to do it, such as a real estate agent.
9 A. I don't — not for a long time.
10 Q. Are you aware of any homes which recently sold
11 in your neighborhood?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And do you know how much they were sold for?
14 A. There was one down the street. It sold I think
15 for 225,000. I only know it because we were hit with the
16 tax assessment, and I called the tax appraiser, and they
17 sent me — or they told me how to get on the Internet and
18 get the current value in the neighborhood. And I did
19 that, because we can object next month to the appraisal
20 from the tax, so I happen to know that.
21 Q. What was the tax assessor’s appraisal?
22 A. The house was for 166,000 and the lot was
23 appraised at 250, but that is pretty much the same and
24 has been.
25 Q. Do you know how many square feet are in your
17
			
			
1 current home?
2 A. 1900 roughly.
3 Q. How many rooms does it have?
4 A. Three bedrooms, living room and a kitchen and an
5 office downstairs.
6 Q. Do you know how many bathrooms?
7 A. Well, two bathrooms and sort of a crummy one
8 downstairs.
9 Q. Two and a half?
10 A. Yeah, two and a half.
11 Q. Other than the office and the living room are
12 there any other — and the bedrooms — are there any
13 other rooms?
14 A. Yes. I have a tiny office off the living room
15 myself. It’s just a cubbyhole.
16 Q. Kind of like a breakfast nook type of room?
17 A. Well, sort of. Yeah, I could have used it for
18 that.
19 Q. Does it have a dining room?
20 A. It’s just a throughway between the kitchen and
21 the living room is the dining room.
22 Q. Have you had any remodeling done on your home in
23 the last 20 years?
24 A. We had some inside bathroom — one bathroom had
25 a tub put in that didn't have one. And we had to have
18
			
			
1 the deck replaced because of termites, but we didn't do
2 really any remodeling.
3 Q. Okay. How many acres does that property sit on?
4 A. About six acres.
5 Q. Does it presently have a mortgage on that house?
6 A. No, it doesn't.
7 Q. Do you know of any other liens on that house?
8 A. No, I don't. Only what — now that you know,
9 the lien from the lawsuit.
10 Q. Other than our lien?
11 A. Yes, right.
12 Q. Unless somebody put another one there that we
13 never check it. I don't know.
14 MS. ARONSON: Brian, I'm handing you back the
15 originals for the 2000 and 1999 tax returns.
16 MR. URTNOWSKI: Thank you.
17 BY MS. ARONSON:
18 Q. Do you know whether or not you have a homestead
19 filed on that house?
20 A. Yes, we have. We had to when we went into
21 bankruptcy.
22 Q. But prior to that time you had not had a
23 homestead?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you have any tenants in your residence?
19
			
			
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you run any type of business out of your
3 residence?
4 A. Yes. My husband and I both work at the — out
5 of the residence, but we don't really run a business. We
6 have little offices where we do our work.
7 Q. Would that be work for anybody other than
8 Liberty Lobby?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you drive a car, Ms. Carto?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. What is the year, make and model of that car?
13 A. It’s a 1991 Cadillac Seville.
14 Q. Do you own this car?
15 A. No, I don't.
16 Q. Do you know who does?
17 A. I think it’s the Government Educational
18 Foundation.
19 Q. And that foundation — do you know who owns it?
20 A. I don't know. I don't think it’s owned by
21 anybody.
22 Q. Is it part of Liberty Lobby?
23 A. No, I don't think so.
24 Q. If I wanted to reach the Government Education
25 Foundation, how would I do that?
20
			
			
1 A. You write to Washington, to their office.
2 Q. Do you know what their office address is?
3 A. It’s 300 Independence Avenue Southeast.
4 Q. Is that the same address as Liberty Lobby?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So they are in some way connected?
7 A. No. They are just in the same building.
8 Q. Do you work for Government Education Foundation?
9 A. I do work if it becomes necessary. They publish
10 material on how to run for office if you want to become a
11 candidate, and I worked with that kind of material,
12 proofreading and putting in ideas. But this is more or
13 less voluntary.
14 Q. So you only do volunteer work for them?
15 A. Yeah. They don't pay me.
16 Q. It’s not considered a subsidiary or anything
17 else of Liberty Lobby?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Does your husband work for the Government
20 Education Foundation?
21 A. No, he does not.
22 Q. Does he ever do any volunteer work for them?
23 A. I'm sure he does.
24 Q. That he does?
25 A. Yeah.
21
			
			
1 Q. Do you know if that foundation is tax exempt as
2 a charitable organization?
3 A. I don't think so, but I'm not sure.
4 Q. Do you know who started up the Government
5 Education foundation?
6 A. No, I don't. It’s been around for a long time.
7 I don't remember who started it.
8 Q. Was it there prior to the time that you and your
9 husband began doing volunteer work for it?
10 A. I'm sure, yeah.
11 Q. What is your arrangement with them where they
12 are providing you with use of a vehicle?
13 A. I do work for them if it becomes necessary and I
14 carry material. I go to meetings and pass out when they
15 have these tax information materials. I go — I have
16 gone on trips in the past to pass those out to different
17 meetings.
18 Q. And approximately how many hours per week would
19 you do volunteer work for them?
20 A. It varies. Sometimes I might not do any.
21 Sometimes I might work maybe ten hours.
22 Q. Do you know if the foundation provides any other
23 volunteer with an automobile for their private use?
24 A. I wouldn't know that.
25 Q. Do you know what the license plate number is on
22
			
			
1 the car?
2 A. No, not offhand.
3 Q. Do you carry automobile insurance for that car?
4 A. It’s in the car.
5 Q. But it is insured?
6 A. I thought you meant if I carried it with me.
7 Yes, it’s insured.
8 Q. Who is the insurer?
9 A. I don't know. I can't remember now.
10 Q. Do you personally insure the car or is that also
11 funded by the Government Foundation?
12 A. I know they send the bills to Washington, so it
13 gets paid there.
14 Q. Do you have any information on the policy number
15 or annual premiums of the insurance?
16 A. No, I don't know. I can tell you it has 260,000
17 miles on it and it’s not worth beans. Probably ready to
18 crack up on me any minute.
19 Q. You should ask the foundation for a new car.
20 A. Never get another one. This is the only one.
21 Q. Does Mr. Carto have an automobile?
22 A. Well, he has — he’s uses the company car also.
23 Q. Is that the same car?
24 A. No. They have a Monte Carlo.
25 Q. What year is that?
23
			
			
1 A. I'm not sure.
2 Q. Would it be a 2000?
3 A. No. It’s an older car.
4 Q. Would it be within the last five years?
5 A. Yeah. I think it might be a '96.
6 Q. Do you know what type of Monte Carlo?
7 A. I don't know how many types there are. Just a
8 plain old car. Nothing special.
9 Q. Is it four doors?
10 A. It’s two door.
11 Q. You said that that is also owned by the
12 foundation?
13 A. I don't know who owns that, but it’s not us. I
14 know that.
15 Q. You know that the Cartos do not own that car?
16 A. Yeah. I really don't know because I don't — I
17 don't know. I really don't know. I don't want to
18 mislead you and tell you the wrong thing.
19 Q. Are both those cars — the Monte Carlo and the
20 Cadillac — kept here in California?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. On your Escondido property?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Are there any other automobiles kept on that
25 property?
24
			
			
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you know how much the Monte Carlo might be
3 worth today?
4 A. No, I don't.
5 Q. You said that the Cadillac is worth beans,
6 correct?
7 A. Yeah, I think. I'm afraid so.
8 The Monte Carlo has lots of miles on it, too.
9 Q. It’s an older model?
10 A. Yes. It has lots of miles on it.
11 Q. Would you know whether Mr. Carto pays insurance
12 on that car?
13 A. You better ask him that because it’s not my bag.
14 I don't get into that.
15 Q. Fair enough. We have already established that
16 you don't own any other real property anywhere in the
17 world, correct?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Have you owned any other property within the
20 last ten years?
21 A. Well, they claim we own the house.
22 Q. When I say other, I'm talking about anything
23 other than the Quail Ridge property.
24 A. No, no.
25 Q. When was the Quail Ridge property deeded from
25
			
			
1 yourself and Mr. Carto — I believe it was to your
2 nephew?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Hans?
5 A. Hans Dirk, yes.
6 It wasn't deeded — it was deeded — it was
7 owned by the corporation, so it’s not in his name. He
8 was given control of it — what — about ten years ago.
9 Q. So approximately 1991?
10 A. Yeah, approximately.
11 Q. When we say it was owned by the corporation,
12 would that be the Herford Corporation?
13 A. That’s right.
14 Q. Was the title always in the name of the Herford
15 Corporation?
16 A. I believe when it was bought it was in Mr.
17 Chapman’s name. It was really also for security.
18 Q. Then I believe — correct me if I'm wrong — but
19 I've gone through some of the documents too. Then it was
20 transferred to Independence House, correct?
21 A. No, never.
22 Q. So it went directly from Mr. Chapman to the
23 Herford Corporation?
24 A. Yes. I know that for sure.
25 Q. At the time that it was initially placed into
26
			
			
1 the Herford Corporation, the owners of that corporation
2 were yourself and Mr. Carto, correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you own any jewelry valued above $500?
5 A. Well, when I went into bankruptcy my jewelry was
6 valued at — I think at 2000 or 2500; however, Judge
7 Maino exempted it from everything, because you made an
8 effort to get it and he wouldn't let you. That is why I
9 remember the amount. I don't have much.
10 Q. I'm not asking for the purposes of — I'm not
11 going to ask you to turn it over right now. I just need
12 to know --
13 A. I don't want to mislead you to say I have a lot.
14 I don't know the value. I know I don't have more than,
15 at the most, 2000.
16 Q. That is all together; that is not any one piece
17 of jewelry?
18 A. Yes. I'm not a jewelry hunter.
19 Q. That hasn't changed since the time it was valued
20 by Judge Maino?
21 A. No.
22 Q. There has been no new pieces added?
23 A. No.
24 Q. One more time. Please don't respond until I'm
25 done with the question. Although I understand what
27
			
			
1 you're saying, I need to make sure the court reporter can
2 get down every word of it. Okay?
3 A. Sorry.
4 Q. Not a problem.
5 Do you own any antiques valued above $500?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you own any art excess in of $500?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Do you own any sculptures in excess of $500?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you own any musical instruments that would be
12 valued above $500?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Have you pawned any personal property within the
15 last five years?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you have any insurance to cover your personal
18 property?
19 A. I brought my policy. It’s in the box.
20 MS. ARONSON: Why don't we go off the record for
21 just two seconds while I try to locate that.
22 (Discussion off the record.)
23 MS. ARONSON: Okay. Back on the record.
24 Q. The insurance policy that you have just given us
25 from Farmers Insurance, that covers the property at the
28
			
			
1 Quail Ridge residence, correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is that fire insurance?
4 A. I think so. It’s just — I think it’s a general
5 homeowner’s policy including fire.
6 Q. Correct. Okay.
7 Do you have a will, Mrs. Carto?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Are you the beneficiary of any will that you
10 know of?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you have any interest in any trust?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you have any stock?
15 A. Yes, I do have some stock.
16 Q. Okay. What would that be in?
17 A. I brought the papers for that too. Not much.
18 About $200. And the — it’s the same what went in the
19 bankruptcy.
20 Q. I think that was Charles Schwab?
21 A. No, no. We had nothing with Schwab. It was --
22 it wasn't an investment house. It was just some stock
23 that we held. It’s Placer Dome and some small one. I
24 have it in there. Conesco or something. $200.
25 Placer Dome is the one that we had for a long
29
			
			
1 time, so that is really the major one.
2 Q. Placer Dome, is that the Canadian --
3 A. It’s a Canadian mining company.
4 Q. Like I said, I did read these documents once
5 upon a time.
6 A. You saw them before, I'm sure.
7 Q. So those are the only two stocks that you're
8 aware of owning at this time?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. Have you owned any other stock within the last
11 five years?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Have you had any other holdings in Canada other
14 than the Placer Dome stock?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you have any bonds?
17 A. No.
18 Q. I'm sorry. Just jumping back to the stocks one
19 more time, can you say what the present value is?
20 A. I'm not sure. I know the one is just 200. It's
21 Conesco or something. And Placer Dome, I don't know the
22 current value. I would have to look it up.
23 Q. Would it be more than $1,000?
24 A. I don't know. I don't know.
25 MS. ARONSON: Mr. Urtnowski, would you be kind
30
			
			
1 enough to see if we can find those documents real quick.
2 MR. URTNOWSKI: Sure. Why don't we go off the
3 record.
4 (Discussion off the record.)
5 MS. ARONSON: Back on the record.
6 I just have been informed that we don't have the
7 documents for that here at the moment, but they were
8 probably provided during the bankruptcy.
9 Q. Is that correct, Mrs. Carto?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. As far as you know, that has not changed since
12 the bankruptcy, correct?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. You haven't sold any stock nor purchased any
15 stock?
16 A. That is right.
17 Q. You have also given me some documents; one of
18 them is entitled “Anderson & Strudwick, Incorporated,"
19 and it lists a couple of other things that you might own
20 shares in such as Campbell Red Lake, Dreyer’s Grand Ice
21 Cream, Federal Sentinel Corp., Greyhound Corp., and
22 Vanderbilt Gold Corp.
23 Do you know whether you still own those stocks?
24 A. None of them except Vanderbilt, and I think they
25 have gone out of business or down to five cents. It's
31
			
			
1 all old stuff.
2 MS. ARONSON: Let’s go off the record for a
3 second because I hear somebody coming through the back
4 door.
5 (Discussion off the record.)
6 MS. ARONSON: Back on the record.
7 THE WITNESS: I don't think we own Vanderbilt
8 any more either. I think that went down the tubes
9 totally. It was one of those collapse-in-California
10 try-outs that never went anywhere. I don't think I have
11 that anymore.
12 BY MS. ARONSON:
13 Q. This document is from, I believe, 1987, so these
14 have been long since sold?
15 A. Oh, yes.
16 Q. They weren't within the last five years?
17 A. No, no, no.
18 Q. You have also given me something that is
19 entitled “Morgan, Stanley, Dean, Witter Statement of
20 Account.” It’s December 31st, 2000. This is the
21 Conesco, Inc. I believe that is what you were describing
22 earlier?
23 A. Yes, yes. And it’s still the same, whatever is
24 on there.
25 Q. It says your financial advisor is William Fox at
32
			
			
1 Morgan, Stanley; is that correct?
2 A. He was just a stockbroker.
3 Q. So you don't go through him on a usual basis
4 when it comes to --
5 A. I'm not dealing with anybody anymore.
6 Q. You also — just one last thing. You had also
7 given us Wells Fargo bank statements?
8 A. Those were closed down by Mr. Sampson. I mean
9 that account.
10 MR. URTNOWSKI: By Mr. Lennon.
11 THE WITNESS: I thought Mr. Sampson. I don't
12 know who did that. That was my bank.
13 BY MS. ARONSON:
14 Q. That was prior to the collection on this
15 judgment. They have been closed as of this date,
16 correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So you no longer have an account at Wells Fargo?
19 A. No.
20 MS. ARONSON: Brian, I'll give these back to
21 you. I'm probably going to have these copied if you
22 don't mind.
23 MR. URTNOWSKI: Okay.
24 BY MS. ARONSON:
25 Q. Other than the two stocks we have mentioned --
33
			
			
1 the Placer Dome and the Conesco — you don't have any
2 other stocks, correct?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You said you don't have any bonds, correct?
5 A. No bonds.
6 Q. And you don't have any securities, as far as you
7 know?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Have you had any assignment of assets within the
10 last five years?
11 A. What does that mean?
12 Q. Have you given any of your assets to third
13 parties within the last five years, transferred any
14 assets?
15 A. Not to the best of my recollection.
16 Q. Do you belong to any clubs?
17 A. Health club.
18 Q. Good for you. How about a country club?
19 A. A what?
20 Q. Country club?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you have any golf memberships, anything of
23 that nature?
24 A. No. No time.
25 Q. Do you belong to any other professional or
34
			
			
1 nonprofessional organizations?
2 A. No, I don't.
3 Q. Do you own any boats?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you own any form of a water vehicle?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you own any motorcycles?
8 A. No. I wish I would.
9 Q. You look like the motorcycle type.
10 Do you own any other motorized vehicles other
11 than the cars that we have mentioned earlier?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you have any interest in any warehouse
14 receipts?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you own any storage facility or storage
17 space?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you have any interest in any bills of lading?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you have any other documents of title in
22 which you own an interest?
23 A. I don't understand that.
24 Q. Such as a stock certificate, any type of
25 security that would have a deed of title to it.
35
			
			
1 A. No. I only have this stock.
2 Q. Do you know whether you have any interest in the
3 estate of someone who is deceased?
4 A. I don't.
5 Q. You're not currently planning on inheriting any
6 money within the next year, are you?
7 A. I wish I were, but I'm not.
8 Q. Actually, sometimes it’s better not to.
9 A. Unless it was so much it didn't matter.
10 Q. But they hardly ever leave you money.
11 A. That’s for sure.
12 Q. As far as you know, are you the beneficiary of
13 any trust?
14 A. No, I'm not. I'm not aware of it. Let’s say
15 that.
16 Q. That is fine. That is the best I can ask you
17 for today.
18 Have you made any gifts to any other persons
19 within the last five years that would have been valued in
20 excess of $2500?
21 A. To the best of my knowledge, I don't think so.
22 Q. As I said, the house was — the corporation,
23 Herford Corporation, was given to your nephew prior to
24 that, correct?
25 A. Yes.
36
			
			
1 Q. Now, as for bank accounts, you stated you have
2 only had this one bank account at B of A, correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I'm not going to have you describe the account
5 for the record, so give me two seconds and I'll move past
6 these questions.
7 This was a checking account, as far as you know?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. Do you have any savings accounts?
10 A. None at all.
11 Q. Do you have any deposit accounts with any other
12 financial institution anywhere in the world?
13 A. Nowhere. I have no money to deposit.
14 Q. Do you have any safe deposit boxes?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you have any letters of credit?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you have any other line of credit other than
19 the ones that we had mentioned earlier which were credit
20 cards?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you have any accounts in any states other
23 than California?
24 A. No.
25 Q. We had already said you do not have any accounts
37
			
			
1 in any foreign countries, correct?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Do you have any retirement funds?
4 A. I have a retirement account with Liberty Lobby.
5 Q. That would be an IRA?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know currently how much that account is
8 worth?
9 A. No, I don't.
10 Q. Do they give you monthly statements?
11 A. No. I get one once a year.
12 Q. After 40 years it better be a good one.
13 A. They didn't start me until just a few years ago.
14 Q. By the way, we are not going to go after your
15 IRA account either.
16 A. Thank you very much. I need it for another car.
17 Q. I know some of these questions can be scary, but
18 it’s just to find out an overall picture of what is going
19 on. Okay.
20 Are you a signatory on any other person's
21 account?
22 A. No, I'm not.
23 Q. How about Liberty Lobby or any other
24 organizations that you do volunteer work for?
25 A. I'm — I have a signature on the small account
38
			
			
1 for the Barnes Review. It’s a magazine that I — for
2 buying stamps. They just few a put hundred dollars in
3 there now and then.
4 Q. What magazine is that?
5 A. The Barnes Review, B-a-r-n-e-s Review.
6 Q. Is it a publication put out by another
7 organization?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Who puts that out?
10 A. It’s the Foundation for Economic Liberty.
11 Q. Foundation for Economic Liberty?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Are they also located at the same address as
14 Liberty Lobby?
15 A. Yes, they are.
16 Q. How many organizations run out of that address?
17 A. It’s not just one address. It’s two corners --
18 it’s a corner of two different streets, two buildings.
19 It’s not the same address. If I said the same address --
20 it’s the same complex, but the FEL is actually 130 Third
21 Street, while Liberty Lobby is on Independence Avenue.
22 So they are separate but close together. Let’s say that.
23 Q. Do you know who owns those buildings that these
24 organizations are in?
25 A. No. Presently I don't.
39
			
			
1 Q. Do you know whether you or your husband ever
2 owned those buildings?
3 A. We personally did not own them, no.
4 Q. You say you presently don't know who owns them.
5 Did you ever know who owned them?
6 A. Yes. At one point a general — Government
7 Education Foundation owned the building that Liberty
8 Lobby is in, but they sold that ten years ago or so. But
9 I understand it’s been resold repeatedly, so I don't know
10 who owns it now.
11 Q. When you said was it sold, was it sold to an
12 independent third party or was it sold to another
13 organization?
14 A. To an independent person. Somebody that the
15 real estate people brought in.
16 Q. And you had never heard of or known that third
17 party prior to the time of the sale?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Other than that one small account, do you have
20 any other signatory on any bank accounts?
21 A. No, I don't.
22 Q. You don't have the power to write a check for
23 Liberty Lobby, correct?
24 A. No, I don't.
25 Q. Or the Foundation for Economic Liberty?
40
			
			
1 A. No.
2 Q. And you don't have the power for Government
3 Education Foundation?
4 A. No, I don't.
5 Q. Do you own any copyrights?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you own any trademarks?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Do you own any patent rights?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Who presently is your accountant?
12 A. I have an accountant who does my tax return once
13 a year, and she’s in — it’s on my records there.
14 Q. Would that be Vincent & Associates?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. That is located in Fresno, California?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How long have they been doing your taxes?
19 A. Three or four years, maybe five.
20 Q. Did you use somebody other than them prior to
21 five years ago?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who would that have been?
24 A. Radnovich.
25 Q. Would you mind spelling that for the record?
41
			
			
1 A. I think it’s R-a-d-n-o-v-i-c-h.
2 Q. Where was — is that a corporation or a person?
3 A. I don't know. It’s a man. He also does the
4 books for the Legion for Survival of Freedom so they
5 would know better what he is. I just used to go in
6 there. I don't know if he’s incorporated or not. I
7 wouldn't know that.
8 Q. Where was Mr. Radnovich located?
9 A. In Torrance.
10 Q. Torrance, California up in L.A.?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Where do you maintain your personal financial
13 records?
14 A. At home.
15 Q. And you have provided those I understand to us
16 today which we are going to have copied at Mr.
17 Urtnowski’s office, correct?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. You have no other financial records, as far as
20 you know, other than those that have been produced?
21 A. I couldn't locate any others.
22 Q. So as far as you know, none others are in your
23 possession or control, correct?
24 A. That is right.
25 Q. Do you have any health insurance?
42
			
			
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. Would you mind describing the company, the type
3 of insurance along with any annual premiums you might
4 pay?
5 A. Blue Cross of California, I believe. And it's
6 just a general health coverage that Liberty Lobby pays
7 for for all the employees.
8 Q. Is that an HMO?
9 A. Pardon me?
10 Q. An HMO?
11 A. Yeah, I think it’s an HMO.
12 Q. Do you have any disability insurance?
13 A. I'm not sure. I doubt it.
14 Q. If you do, it would be provided by the Liberty
15 Lobby?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you have any life insurance?
18 A. I believe I do. About either 15 or $25,000
19 worth.
20 Q. With which company?
21 A. I don't know the company.
22 Q. Is that also provided to you by Liberty Lobby?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. As part of your compensation package?
25 A. Yes.
43
			
			
1 Q. Other than the insurance that we have discussed
2 earlier and which I have a copy of here for your personal
3 residence, which I believe is a homeowners policy, do you
4 have any other type of insurance?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you know whether you have any loans out
7 against any of your insurance policies?
8 A. No, I don't have any loans.
9 Q. Do any of your insurance policies have cash
10 value?
11 A. I don't think so.
12 Q. We have already said the name of the company
13 where you work is Liberty Lobby, correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you or you husband have any ownership in this
16 company?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Who owns Liberty Lobby?
19 A. I don't think anybody does.
20 Q. Does it have stockholders?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Is it a charitable organization?
23 A. I don't think so. I know it’s not tax exempt.
24 Q. Who is the president of Liberty Lobby?
25 A. I don't think it has a president.
44
			
			
1 Q. Who would you consider in control of Liberty
2 Lobby?
3 A. CEO is Vincent Ryan, I believe.
4 Q. How long would he have been the CEO?
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. When you say you don't know, can you give me
7 your best estimate? Would it have been within the last
8 five years?
9 A. He’s worked there for a long time, so for all I
10 know he could have been CEO for 20 years or for five
11 years. I really don't know because I'm not an officer or
12 director so I wouldn't have access to any of that.
13 Q. Do you know who the other officers and directors
14 are?
15 A. My husband is the treasurer, and that’s about
16 all I know.
17 Q. Fair enough. Do you personally hold any
18 professional license?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Liberty Lobby, that is a corporation, correct?
21 A. I think so. Don't ask me too many details. I
22 don't know, really.
23 Q. Do you know whether they have the word “Inc."
24 after their name?
25 A. I don't know. I really don't know.
45
			
			
1 Q. That is fair enough. Anytime you don't know the
2 answer to something, you're more than welcome to say so,
3 but if you do have an estimate, I'm entitled to your best
4 estimate. Okay?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You said you don't know who the principals of
7 the corporation are, correct?
8 A. The principals — you mean the officers or
9 directors or what?
10 Q. The directors.
11 A. Well, I know that Vince Ryan is, and my husband.
12 Q. But the other positions you wouldn't be aware
13 of, correct?
14 A. No, I don't know who they are.
15 Q. You don't know who would have any ownership
16 interest in Liberty Lobby, correct?
17 A. I know nobody has.
18 Q. Do you know who the agent for service of process
19 of the corporation is?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you know how many shares are issued in the
22 corporation?
23 A. I don't think there are any shares.
24 Q. So there wouldn't be any shareholders?
25 A. No.
46
			
			
1 Q. So you and your husband don't own any shares,
2 correct?
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. I'm sorry. Some of these question are
5 redundant, but for the record I do have to ask them.
6 Do you know whether Liberty Lobby uses any other
7 fictitious business name?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Do you know whether Liberty Lobby has a business
10 bank account?
11 A. I'm sure they do.
12 Q. But, again, you have no access to that account
13 one way or the other, correct?
14 A. No.
15 Q. When you get paid by Liberty Lobby, does the
16 check come from a bank in Washington?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you recall what bank it is?
19 A. It’s either National Capital Bank or Washington
20 National Capital Bank. I just look at the amount, if
21 that is okay. I don't remember what bank it is.
22 Q. That’s okay. Also, again, we are just asking
23 for your best --
24 A. I don't want to have the decimal point move the
25 wrong way.
47
			
			
1 Q. As you probably know by now, we have other ways
2 of getting this information. This is just an overall so
3 we can put it together. Okay?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Don't worry if you can't remember anything.
6 Do you know what kind of account that business
7 does have, whether it’s checking or savings or both?
8 A. I get paid from a checking account I'm sure.
9 Q. But you wouldn't know what other kind of
10 accounts it might hold?
11 A. No, I do not know that.
12 Q. Does Liberty Lobby have any other branch office
13 other than the one at 300 Independence Avenue?
14 A. Well, we always consider our house the West
15 Coast office.
16 Q. Would you use the P. O. Box for that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And that is the post office box we mentioned
19 earlier?
20 A. 28802.
21 Q. That’s the one we had mentioned earlier,
22 correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Other than your home out here on the West Coast
25 and the Washington D.C. office, does Liberty Lobby have
48
			
			
1 any other offices anywhere in the world?
2 A. I don't think so.
3 Q. You said there is approximately 20 to 30
4 employees, correct?
5 A. Something like that.
6 Q. You wouldn't know what its monthly payroll was,
7 would you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You said you worked how many hours a week for
10 Liberty Lobby?
11 A. Well, Liberty Lobby is my full-time job. 40
12 hours.
13 Q. Do you work those on the West Coast or --
14 A. I do them here.
15 Q. What is your hourly wage?
16 A. I don't think I have an hourly wage. I think
17 I'm an annual salary.
18 Q. What is your annual salary?
19 A. I think it’s 32,000.
20 Q. Are you paid any type of commission?
21 A. No.
22 Q. And you're not currently an officer of that
23 business, correct?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Nor a director?
49
			
			
1 A. No.
2 Q. Are you currently an officer or director of any
3 other business?
4 A. Liberty Life Line Foundation. It’s not really a
5 business.
6 Q. What is it?
7 A. It’s a charitable foundation.
8 Q. And that one would be tax exempt?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Any other businesses or organizations?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Are you currently a stockholder of any business
13 or organization?
14 A. No, I'm not.
15 Q. Do you know whether Liberty Lobby has an
16 accountant for its business?
17 A. I'm sure they do.
18 Q. Would it be in-house or out of house?
19 A. They have a bookkeeper in-house.
20 Q. Who is the bookkeeper?
21 A. It’s Blain Hutzel, H-u-t-z-e-l.
22 Q. Do you know whether they have any accountant out
23 of the house?
24 A. I'm not sure.
25 Q. And Blain Hutzel can be reached at the 300
50
			
			
1 Independence Avenue address?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is that also where Liberty Lobby’s business
4 records are maintained?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you maintain any of those records personally
7 at home?
8 A. No.
9 Q. So any work you do for them here on the West
10 Coast, you would send a copy of the business records back
11 to the East Coast?
12 A. I have to correct myself. I do — for the
13 Spotlight, which is the publication of Liberty Lobby, I
14 do refund checks. If somebody dies or cancels their
15 subscription, I do the refund checks out here and I have
16 that file. But it’s just a letter and a check number
17 attached where they got ten dollars back or something.
18 Q. What account would you write that refund check
19 out of for the Spotlight?
20 A. Oh, that is right. I do sign on that. I forget
21 that one. Yes. Okay.
22 Q. So you're a signatory on the Spotlight account.
23 What bank is that kept at?
24 A. I think it’s the same bank, the National Capital
25 or Washington Capital Bank.
51
			
			
1 Q. Which brings me back to the same question. Can
2 you think of any other accounts you might be a signatory
3 on?
4 A. No, I'm not. I forgot that one. They used to
5 have a rubber stamp with somebody else’s name and I used
6 to stamp the check, but that person passed on or passed
7 away, so I ended up signing the checks, but it’s not
8 really important.
9 Q. Fair enough. And that account — is that the
10 main account for the Spotlight?
11 A. I don't think so. No.
12 Q. That would just be a small account?
13 A. It’s just for refunds. It says Spotlight Refund
14 on that, and that is all it is.
15 Q. Do you have any part-time businesses other than
16 the ones we have mentioned?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Have you ever provided any consulting services
19 on a fee basis?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Have you ever owned any business in the past
22 five years?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Or any portion of any business?
25 A. No.
52
			
			
1 Q. What is your pay schedule from Liberty Lobby?
2 Is it semi-annually, monthly or --
3 A. Bi-weekly.
4 Q. I'm sorry. Bi-monthly?
5 A. Bi-monthly. Not bi-weekly.
6 Q. I made the same mistake. Bi-monthly?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. Do you know who handles payroll at Liberty
9 Lobby?
10 A. Blain Hutzel.
11 Q. Do you have any bonus programs?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you have any other sources of income other
14 than the ones we have discussed today?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Carto owns any
17 businesses or any portion of any business?
18 A. I don't think so.
19 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Carto is an employee of
20 any other business other than Liberty Lobby?
21 A. No.
22 Q. So as far as you know, Mr. Carto has no other
23 source of income other than Liberty Lobby, correct?
24 A. He gets a Social Security check and veteran's
25 pension check.
53
			
			
1 Q. Do you receive any monies from any third
2 parties, such as your nephew?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Have you made any loans to anyone within the
5 last five years?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Does anyone owe you money presently?
8 A. Nothing that I could collect, no. No, nobody
9 owes me money.
10 Q. Do you own or have any interest in any
11 promissory notes?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you own any interest in any drafts?
14 A. Drafts? What drafts?
15 Q. It’s just another type of IOU.
16 A. No.
17 Q. How about a bill of exchange?
18 A. I don't know that either, but I don't have it.
19 Q. Do you own any interest in any commercial paper
20 that you know of?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you have any judgments in which you're a
23 judgment creditor?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Have you taken assignments of anybody else's
54
			
			
1 judgment against a third party?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Are you acting as the executor of any estate?
4 A. No.
5 Q. I do understand we'd asked for the income taxes
6 for the past five years, but I only copied the last two,
7 correct?
8 MR. URTNOWSKI: But they are here.
9 BY MS. ARONSON:
10 Q. Okay. So I won't ask you any questions about
11 that because I can just read it for myself. So let me
12 skip through some of this.
13 Presently does the government owe you any
14 refunds on your taxes?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Other than the person who prepares your taxes,
17 do you have any other bookkeeper or accountant for your
18 personal finances?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Have you applied for any loans in the past five
21 years?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Have you filled out any financial applications
24 whatsoever in the last five years?
25 A. No.
55
			
			
1 Q. How about for your credit cards; did you have to
2 fill out applications for those?
3 A. Not in the last five years.
4 Q. Have you ever had any financial statement on
5 your assets prepared within the last five years by any
6 type of bookkeeper or accountant?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Are you presently a party to any pending
9 lawsuits other than those involved in the instant
10 litigation? I'm talking about all of them. So any
11 others other than the LSF.
12 A. No.
13 Q. Oh, do you have a key chain with you for your
14 car right now, the chain that you keep your keys for your
15 car on?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Would you mind taking those out for just a
18 second.
19 A. Here it is.
20 Q. Okay. On here there is three keys, one of which
21 looks like a key to GM. Would that be the key to the
22 Cadillac?
23 A. No. It’s the key to the Monte Carlo.
24 Q. And the second key with the black around it,
25 would that be --
56
			
			
1 A. The Monte Carlo. I'm driving the Monte Carlo.
2 I had trouble with the old car.
3 Q. What about this third key which is a small key?
4 A. It’s from the office, from the cabinet, file
5 cabinet.
6 Q. In Liberty Lobby?
7 A. No, no, not --
8 Q. In your office?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 Where are your house keys?
12 A. I'll show them to you.
13 With a light on it.
14 Q. Do you have any other keys on here other than
15 house keys?
16 A. No.
17 Q. What is this?
18 A. That is the gate key.
19 Q. I'm sorry?
20 A. Gate key. It’s a gate in the house.
21 Q. Great. Thank you very much, Mrs. Carto.
22 You know, it asks me to have you empty your
23 purse, but I don't really feel comfortable with that.
24 I've never been that type of person. That is one of the
25 things they do, but what I will ask is --
57
			
			
1 A. You won't have to ask me. I will do it.
2 Q. I appreciate it.
3 A. I already pulled everything out already, you
4 know.
5 Q. I'm just going to ask you do you have anything
6 of any value whatever in your purse today?
7 A. I wish I had, but I don't.
8 Q. I'm not going to make you empty your purse out,
9 Ms. Carto. It’s not my style.
10 A. Probably won't be fun either.
11 MS. ARONSON: Would you mind if I just take two
12 seconds. We'll go off the record for two seconds.
13 (Discussion off the record.)
14 MS. ARONSON: Back on the record.
15 Q. Do you know what Mr. Carto’s salary was for the
16 past five years with Liberty Lobby?
17 A. I think a dollar a year.
18 Q. So he doesn't take a salary?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you know whether he has any kind of bonuses
21 or commissions?
22 A. No, no bonuses or commissions that I know of.
23 Q. Do they pay his expenses for travel and things
24 of that nature?
25 A. They do I think. I think they do, yes.
58
			
			
1 Q. So he would get reimbursement for any travel
2 or --
3 A. Yeah, yeah. Out of pocket.
4 Q. Do you know whether he uses an accountant other
5 than the ones that we have mentioned?
6 A. No accountant.
7 Q. Does he get his taxes prepared also by the
8 same --
9 A. I don't think he has a tax return preparer.
10 Q. Do you know whether he has his taxes — does he
11 do — I'm sorry. Does he do his taxes himself?
12 A. I don't think he has taxes when he has no
13 income.
14 Q. Other than the veterans and Social Security,
15 there is nothing in addition to that?
16 A. No, no.
17 Q. Do you know whether or not you have any tax
18 liens filed against you?
19 A. I don't know of any.
20 Q. At this time you're not aware of any, correct?
21 A. No.
22 Q. And you said you don't have any type of mortgage
23 or monthly rent payment, correct?
24 A. No. Just expenses.
25 Q. Correct. But there is no --
59
			
			
1 A. No.
2 Q. I'm sorry. One more time. You have got to let
3 me finish the questions. It’s really for the court
4 reporter and so it looks proper when it’s out in booklet
5 form. Okay.
6 You have no car payment or any other payment
7 that you know of for an asset, correct?
8 A. No.
9 Q. What is your monthly gas and electric payment?
10 I'll bet you that it’s through the roof this month.
11 A. Well, we pay about 100, 120 electricity, but we
12 have a big water bill. In the summer it can go up to
13 $200. Of course we got to water the useless land to keep
14 some shrubs on it. And gas bill — we have propane gas
15 delivered once a year. It’s maybe three, $400.
16 Q. Your electric bill is only 120?
17 A. Well, we don't pay the whole thing. We have --
18 the state arranged that we are supposed to owe --
19 everybody owes in two years from now on a balloon
20 payment. Maybe you don't hear. You do in San Diego
21 County. You don't — you only pay a portion of your
22 electric bill now, because when it shut up Davis made
23 some arrangements in Sacramento that everybody is going
24 to have a balloon payment of what we don't pay now in two
25 years. Everybody.
60
			
			
1 Q. Then I'm trouble because my bill is about $300 a
2 month.
3 A. If you're paying that, you are probably paying
4 twice — in reality you should be paying twice as much.
5 It goes against everybody’s account.
6 People don't pay any attention to these things.
7 Q. I did not know this.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you know whether you have made any assignment
10 for the benefit of any creditor within the last five
11 years?
12 A. None.
13 Q. Other than LSF, do you know of any other
14 creditors you might have?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Your attorney is looking at you. Your attorney
17 is not a creditor, is he?
18 MR. URTNOWSKI: Me, yeah.
19 THE WITNESS: I can't think of any.
20 BY MS. ARONSON:
21 Q. Are you the guarantor on any loan to any third
22 party?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Are you an endorser on any loan?
25 A. No.
61
			
			
1 Q. You're not making payments to any other
2 creditors other than your credit cards, things of that
3 nature?
4 A. That’s right.
5 Q. Now, I know you filed for bankruptcy so I don't
6 need to ask you these questions because we went through
7 it with you.
8 Do you plan on filing bankruptcy in the near
9 future?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. Again, if you were to give us a summary of your
12 current obligations to creditors, could you think of any
13 offhand other than us? When I say us, of course I'm
14 talking for LSF.
15 A. No. I can't think of anybody.
16 Q. Your gross monthly income is how much?
17 A. My — under 3,000.
18 Q. After taxes?
19 A. It’s — I get paid about 2000 net a month.
20 Q. What is your gross monthly debt?
21 A. My grossly monthly what?
22 Q. Debt. When you ring up your water bill, your
23 electric bill and all the debt that you have to pay per
24 month, what --
25 A. And the property taxes. They are very high. I
62
			
			
1 think our total expenses — house expenses are anywhere
2 from 800 to $1,000. You're constantly battling weeds and
3 hiring people to --
4 Q. That is just for the house; that’s not including
5 your food and travel and gas for your car, correct?
6 A. Just the house.
7 Q. So would your gross monthly debt be
8 approximately the same as your gross monthly income?
9 A. Pretty close.
10 I can't save. Let’s say that. If I have any
11 left over, I'd be saving that.
12 Q. Do you have any other assets that we have not
13 already discussed?
14 A. No, I don't.
15 Q. Do you plan on paying the judgment creditors in
16 this action the money that is owed to them?
17 A. I don't have it.
18 Q. Do you have any type of plan of how it’s going
19 to get paid?
20 A. I couldn't possibly pay it if I lived 200 years.
21 MS. ARONSON: Why don't we go off the record for
22 two seconds.
23 (Discussion off the record.)
24 MS. ARONSON: I just have one additional
25 question.
63
			
			
1 Q. Have you ever heard of Mr. Verlin Lawton?
2 A. Never.
3 Q. Has Mr. Carto ever traveled under that name, as
4 far as you know?
5 A. Never heard the name in my life.
6 MS. ARONSON: Is there anything you wanted to
7 put on the record before we close up shop?
8 MR. URTNOWSKI: Just that I believe there is a
9 protective order in place for these documents already.
10 MS. ARONSON: As I stated earlier, I'm willing
11 to protect this information that we have received on a
12 separate piece of paper until such time as we can work
13 out the details as to how we are going to go about
14 reviewing it.
15 MR. URTNOWSKI: Thank you.
16 MS. ARONSON: Why don't we not close up until I
17 talk to Brian.
18 We will relieve the court reporter of her
19 duties.
20 * * * * *
64